Full Version: Lolicon
Anyone ever hear of Lolicon? If not, it's basically underage girls drawn having sex. I don't know about this one because it really bothers me. I can stand pretty much everything else but isn't their a point when enough is enough? Well I was wondering how you guys feel on the subject? Oh and I believe the government says, "since their are no real people being harmed in the production of such materials that it doesn't infringe on any human rights". So bascially the government is staying neutral and not doing anything which is an interesting move for an conservative republican run American government. Well lets see your input guys! -CAF- :wink:
Lolicon is just a nicer way of saying pedophilia. It's just wrong.
Thank goodness At least someone agrees with me. :tongue: I Find it rather distasteful personally I only found out about it recently to. Which is weird since I have been into anime for like 8 years now. I wonder what other countries laws are on this matter anyone have any input on this? I just know America's laws as of the moment that is. Well talk to ya guys some more about this one. -CAF- :)
The new evil of hentai. Seems to me like it was around since the genre started. The comedy thing for me is when you get disclaimers saying, all the charcters portrayed here are over 18 when the visuals clearly show some hideously underaged girl. Ages of consent change from country to country and there is certainly a social aspect to them, i.e. it's not just down to biology but seeing some old geezer lech of little girls disturbs me greatly.
Like porn isn't getting disturbing enough.
Like porn isn't getting disturbing enough.
Bad, bad, bad.
It's evil. Really, really, really evil. Seeing this stuff in an H makes me wanna hate the whole thing.
I'll have none of that please.
It's evil. Really, really, really evil. Seeing this stuff in an H makes me wanna hate the whole thing.
I'll have none of that please.
It doesn't really get to me that much anymore. After seeing a few (very few) mangas that have very hot & cute loli's, I actually liked em. Guess I'm gearing towards the dark side of H now. :vader:
But, there are still some loli pics that I don't like. Specially when they're of real life loli's :pukeface:
But, there are still some loli pics that I don't like. Specially when they're of real life loli's :pukeface:
Ugh... terrible trend for H as an art form! People shouldn't mess with what isn't right! Sure, some of them may be hot... but just the mere thought of an age that doesn't at least add up to 9 makes me just feel queazy. :rant:
And no old, fat, wrinkly men with afforementioned for Pete's sake! that is absolutely the last straw for me!
And no old, fat, wrinkly men with afforementioned for Pete's sake! that is absolutely the last straw for me!
ewwww! just hearing something about that makes you want to cringe. :eek:
Especially when you mention about old wrinkly fat and digusting old guys. Or for that matter old digusting women! Especially when I heard about one having sex with a 10 year old boy!!! This is somebody's kid people!
Especially when you mention about old wrinkly fat and digusting old guys. Or for that matter old digusting women! Especially when I heard about one having sex with a 10 year old boy!!! This is somebody's kid people!
Thank you Malachi for that image that I never ever wanted to think of. It'll take a lot o hot naked chicks to remove that from my head. Luckily I got a lot to look at.
To me Real Life lolitas are still very VERY WRONG. And I think that word only refers to girls. NOT 10-year-old boys. :pukeface:
Anyway, in fairness sakes, I think I should just put a link to the pic from a manga entitled "Mi Da Ra" that swayed me to the "Dark Side"
I'm sorry but she is just hot enough for me to forget that she's underage.
I think I should also say that for those who are interested in the Manga but are turned off by lolita's, the Manga has more than 1 story and she is the only lolita in it. All other girls in that manga are in the right age bracket. Check it out. It's good. Not kidding.
To me Real Life lolitas are still very VERY WRONG. And I think that word only refers to girls. NOT 10-year-old boys. :pukeface:
Anyway, in fairness sakes, I think I should just put a link to the pic from a manga entitled "Mi Da Ra" that swayed me to the "Dark Side"
I'm sorry but she is just hot enough for me to forget that she's underage.
I think I should also say that for those who are interested in the Manga but are turned off by lolita's, the Manga has more than 1 story and she is the only lolita in it. All other girls in that manga are in the right age bracket. Check it out. It's good. Not kidding.
If they're really underage, then it's awfully wrong. If not, then I say go for it! :buck:
There is something fairly wrong here, I am disgusted as much as the next person with "lolicon" stuff, but if you consider that most anime females are drawn in their teens...Where does one draw the line?
I guess it depends on how a person defines lolicon, which to me refers to a very young flat-chested girl that obviously looks like a kid...That's where I draw the line, and I usually stay away from this shameful hentai genre...
I guess it depends on how a person defines lolicon, which to me refers to a very young flat-chested girl that obviously looks like a kid...That's where I draw the line, and I usually stay away from this shameful hentai genre...
QUOTE (Loosecannon @ Jul 1 2004, 12:44 AM)
I guess it depends on how a person defines lolicon, which to me refers to a very young flat-chested girl that obviously looks like a kid...That's where I draw the line, and I usually stay away from this shameful hentai genre...
Lolicon, as the defenition I know goes, includes young girls that are above the age of nine and below the age of thirteen.
I don't mind it, as long as it's tasteful. Doesn't mean I'll go out on a limb to look for it, however, it's just not my thing.
Reality check time folks!
Lolita art itself is not baD, people desiring sex with underage, presumably vulnerable innocent children, IS!
In Japan a unmarried 25 year old gal is considered over the hill, and I think so is 20. (old outdated information?) Japan is in a state of emergency right now. Because working woman are putting off procreating and making new generations until they are much older and sucessful. This has caused a decrease in children of epic proportions, a population shortage crisis, in fact. The Japanese government can't really afford to have less sexually active males right now, Capiche? It's not in their best interests to curtail any sexual activity in the population, their population is riding on it. Your so called "lolicon" art is just that ART, it's a creative expression and does not in fact harm any individuals, It may not be my cup of tea either, but the worst critique an artist can be given, is that his stuff would never offend anyone. Art is meant to provoke emotion, whether it's the love of beauty , or the expression of sexual fantasies, it's art, it's not to be censored.
Judge it that's what it's there for.
Lolita art itself is not baD, people desiring sex with underage, presumably vulnerable innocent children, IS!
In Japan a unmarried 25 year old gal is considered over the hill, and I think so is 20. (old outdated information?) Japan is in a state of emergency right now. Because working woman are putting off procreating and making new generations until they are much older and sucessful. This has caused a decrease in children of epic proportions, a population shortage crisis, in fact. The Japanese government can't really afford to have less sexually active males right now, Capiche? It's not in their best interests to curtail any sexual activity in the population, their population is riding on it. Your so called "lolicon" art is just that ART, it's a creative expression and does not in fact harm any individuals, It may not be my cup of tea either, but the worst critique an artist can be given, is that his stuff would never offend anyone. Art is meant to provoke emotion, whether it's the love of beauty , or the expression of sexual fantasies, it's art, it's not to be censored.
Judge it that's what it's there for.
Thinking about it, there is a natural sexual drive in males to be attracted to any female that has become sexually active (read having had first period). The reason this is no longer applicable in many societies is due to a sociological lengthening of childhood.
Look back in history about 200 years and it is very common for 12-13 year old females to be married off. Whilst this may seem very disturbing today you really have to look at what you are arguing against, i.e. biology. If the body starts to manifest itself as an entity that is able to reproduce then who is to say that it is wrong to do so...
Well myself for starters. I think it is one of the more obvious traits of the unique nature of humanity that we go against certain "natural" and evolutionary principles. Our sentiency is at its most obvious in these cases.
From another angle however, since these are characters and not people, who is to say how old they are? Certainly if the manga in question has a storyline that espouces old men using underage girls then I get uncomfortable. However if the age is left ambiguous, who is to say that the intention is only to create a desireable image rather than a perverted one.
Whilst I like the structure of the argument I elicited above, I must admit certain actualities prevent me from really believing it. For example the gloria h game, in it's original Japanese form, has the majority of the female characters beign under the age of consent. Since this is explicit in the story how can one justify the game as not being at least in some way lollicon in intent.
However, anthropomising such things is very very shakey, and waxing lyrical about morals in this way is not at all based on solid foundaitions.
Look back in history about 200 years and it is very common for 12-13 year old females to be married off. Whilst this may seem very disturbing today you really have to look at what you are arguing against, i.e. biology. If the body starts to manifest itself as an entity that is able to reproduce then who is to say that it is wrong to do so...
Well myself for starters. I think it is one of the more obvious traits of the unique nature of humanity that we go against certain "natural" and evolutionary principles. Our sentiency is at its most obvious in these cases.
From another angle however, since these are characters and not people, who is to say how old they are? Certainly if the manga in question has a storyline that espouces old men using underage girls then I get uncomfortable. However if the age is left ambiguous, who is to say that the intention is only to create a desireable image rather than a perverted one.
Whilst I like the structure of the argument I elicited above, I must admit certain actualities prevent me from really believing it. For example the gloria h game, in it's original Japanese form, has the majority of the female characters beign under the age of consent. Since this is explicit in the story how can one justify the game as not being at least in some way lollicon in intent.
However, anthropomising such things is very very shakey, and waxing lyrical about morals in this way is not at all based on solid foundaitions.
I'm ambivalent on the facts because I don't know enough to have a strong opinion. Some people argue that lolicon art legitimates a market for underage porn, part of the social milieu and all, so that people acting on the margins can justify exploiting progressively younger girls, and know that there are *more* people out there ready to accept it than would be without lolicon art desensitizing them. My feeling is this is all happening on the margins, but with the internet, the margins could be 10,000s of people and 100s more real preteen & younger girls. It's not something that's really easy to test. But the worse it is, the more complicit are those who drive the phenomenon.
As for the demographics of Japan, from what I know there's a huge generation gap going on, even over the course of 5 years ... so that girls are waiting longer and longer to get married, and it's a whole social *revolution* (I'm not sure the Japanese will ever be ready for a full-on social revolution a la 1969 US or Europe) of 20 something women living together up until 26-28.
Finally, you have to keep in mind there's a bit of social convention here. People forget that for 99.9% of human history the average *lifespan* of a human was about 25 and copulation had to start right at puberty (why else would evolution have started puberty when it did?) The concept of *childhood* in a lot of ways is a late 19th century invention. But, of course, all these conventions are by now pretty ingrained in kid's developmental psyche ... and that's definitely not something you want to screw with. I would never support it, but it puts things in perspective.
Anyway, childporn/lolicon art is right at the heart of all the biggest debates going on in First Amendment (free speech) law, because it goes right to the heart of the question, what could we possibly be trying to regulate this stuff for? The idea itself, or just its bad effects? Are we trying to stop the people who consume this stuff from consuming it, or the poor girls who might or more likely won't get hurt in the process? If you say we're only stopping it if it's harmful, then to be logically consistent you have to allow real child porn that's already in circulation, or legalize possession, unless you can argue it drives future abuse ... and that's never going to happen, at least not in the US. But then you have to explain what's the difference between that and lolicon hentai, at least if you're a judge and want to be consistent. There are arguments on both sides; I haven't figured it all out yet. Anyway, it's not for me.
As for the demographics of Japan, from what I know there's a huge generation gap going on, even over the course of 5 years ... so that girls are waiting longer and longer to get married, and it's a whole social *revolution* (I'm not sure the Japanese will ever be ready for a full-on social revolution a la 1969 US or Europe) of 20 something women living together up until 26-28.
Finally, you have to keep in mind there's a bit of social convention here. People forget that for 99.9% of human history the average *lifespan* of a human was about 25 and copulation had to start right at puberty (why else would evolution have started puberty when it did?) The concept of *childhood* in a lot of ways is a late 19th century invention. But, of course, all these conventions are by now pretty ingrained in kid's developmental psyche ... and that's definitely not something you want to screw with. I would never support it, but it puts things in perspective.
Anyway, childporn/lolicon art is right at the heart of all the biggest debates going on in First Amendment (free speech) law, because it goes right to the heart of the question, what could we possibly be trying to regulate this stuff for? The idea itself, or just its bad effects? Are we trying to stop the people who consume this stuff from consuming it, or the poor girls who might or more likely won't get hurt in the process? If you say we're only stopping it if it's harmful, then to be logically consistent you have to allow real child porn that's already in circulation, or legalize possession, unless you can argue it drives future abuse ... and that's never going to happen, at least not in the US. But then you have to explain what's the difference between that and lolicon hentai, at least if you're a judge and want to be consistent. There are arguments on both sides; I haven't figured it all out yet. Anyway, it's not for me.
One solid point: there is a very thin line between hentai lolicons and the real lolicon thing. Most people misconcept both as the same, not considering that hentai lolicon is an art or an artist's expression of libido, while the real thing is pedophile.
But one thing bothers me, even with hentai lolicons.
As I observed, hentai lolicons is the easiest way for the artist to express the "thought" of innocence, purity, and inexperience that is being subjected to a world of flesh and carnal pleasures. In more strong expressions, these hentai lolicons are sometimes depict in themes like bondage and S&M.
It is sometimes scary that a lot of males have something with these type of perversity, that might affect it's way of thinking and enact it to reality. You can't say it's impossible because it really happens.
What is my point is: it is okay to present hentai lolicons in match with romantic storyline; and minimize it's presentation to strong themes like what I said above.
At the end, it's just an artist's expression, anyways...
But one thing bothers me, even with hentai lolicons.
As I observed, hentai lolicons is the easiest way for the artist to express the "thought" of innocence, purity, and inexperience that is being subjected to a world of flesh and carnal pleasures. In more strong expressions, these hentai lolicons are sometimes depict in themes like bondage and S&M.
It is sometimes scary that a lot of males have something with these type of perversity, that might affect it's way of thinking and enact it to reality. You can't say it's impossible because it really happens.
What is my point is: it is okay to present hentai lolicons in match with romantic storyline; and minimize it's presentation to strong themes like what I said above.
At the end, it's just an artist's expression, anyways...
I, too, find myself occassionally drawn to lolicon'ism... but only sometimes as a very minor part of my overall hentai experience.
But even then, I keep myself disciplined and remind myself that it's not real. I do not, however, go into anything under 13. I draw my line there.
But even then, I keep myself disciplined and remind myself that it's not real. I do not, however, go into anything under 13. I draw my line there.
I don't mind, but probably because I'm young, I'm 18 and I date 14+ girls... and I guess they remind me of them. So I guess it's a matter of who and how old they are. I'll cut the line at around 10... it's just wrong for girls under 10 to be portrayed with sex, they're not even fully developed yet! Heck, they haven't even started...
The the controversy comes down to a cultural clash between conservative american values and japanese values. Looking at pictures aint that bad. There is this show on PBS called "Wide Angle". They did a report on the international sex slave trade. 500,000+ women and children are smuggled each year as sex slaves. They also had a report on a Romanian man that sold his 14 year old son as a male prostitute, anal sex and all :sad:. Its a f**ked up world. I wouldn’t worry about looking at pictures if i was you.
I too have to confess that I like to see younger girls in hentai (Like in Shintaisou Kari/Princess 69). But in real life I definately stick to girls of my own age...
Thanks to Clamp's Card Captor Sakura series, and a few H-games and H-mangas, I am now find that naked underaged girls are in some way attractive. There is no denying that some lolicons are as hot as "well-rounded" women. I guess it's the way they're drawn, specially when they're naked and being f*cked. :drool:
But I still draw the line on real life lolitas.
But I still draw the line on real life lolitas.
Lolicon is bad! I don't care what you've been exposed to or what nuthin Largy! I'm not standing for it! Dude! It's little girls! I find little girls cute! I'd like to have a little girl with my wife(hopefully) someday! :laugh:
'Tis a generic evil which must be cleansed! I shal summon forth a grand army to counter this beligerance! :buck:
'Tis a generic evil which must be cleansed! I shal summon forth a grand army to counter this beligerance! :buck:
But what about borderlines? Like, girls that are of the age but look a lot younger?
As for the art form, the differences between a innocent childish expression and the face of a woman aren't that different. The eyes of a women are long and thin, their face coming mostly to a point at the chin, and they are slender, making them look tall, where as younger girls have rounder eyes, face, and size (Shorter). Now you can get a few just underaged girls with a more womanly face, or one old enough but with a younger face. Just to mix you up a bit ^^.
As for ones that look liek toddlers, that isn't really cool. The link that larghaz gave on page 1 is the lowest I could go anyway.
*EDIT* Typo.
As for the art form, the differences between a innocent childish expression and the face of a woman aren't that different. The eyes of a women are long and thin, their face coming mostly to a point at the chin, and they are slender, making them look tall, where as younger girls have rounder eyes, face, and size (Shorter). Now you can get a few just underaged girls with a more womanly face, or one old enough but with a younger face. Just to mix you up a bit ^^.
As for ones that look liek toddlers, that isn't really cool. The link that larghaz gave on page 1 is the lowest I could go anyway.
*EDIT* Typo.
I don't hate it, but I'm not like "Sweet, A ten year old girl! Mmmm..." If you ask me they aren't...well..."Well Endowed" enough for me. Their chests rival those of little boys!
QUOTE (Demoncaller777 @ Aug 1 2004, 06:48 AM)
I don't hate it, but I'm not like "Sweet, A ten year old girl! Mmmm..." If you ask me they aren't...well..."Well Endowed" enough for me. Their chests rival those of little boys!
I know some little boys that could put them to shame due to too many :burger:.
Okay, I'm changing positions on this one...I'm gonna say I hate it. I'm not against it, it's just totally boring, and disapointing. I was trying to enjoy the bukkake picture collection on hentaipalms forum, and like 6 out of 10 were little girls! It's ruining it for me!
QUOTE (Demoncaller777 @ Aug 9 2004, 08:37 PM)
Okay, I'm changing positions on this one...I'm gonna say I hate it. I'm not against it, it's just totally boring, and disapointing. I was trying to enjoy the bukkake picture collection on hentaipalms forum, and like 6 out of 10 were little girls! It's ruining it for me!
I still find nothing wrong with that. You look at pictures of naked underaged girls, you're bound to find something like that. In fact, I find it seductive sometimes. Cute naked girl, covered in white goo. But the girl has to be super hot. If not, I ain't interested.
I know in the past that I rejected this, but the girl in the pic has to be really hot, and as long as it is confined to hentai, and the child isin't a toddler or infant, I can safely say that, I, Sesshomarulocked has such a little dissaproving of loliotas, that I probably wouldn't be able to classify it away from any other form I look at.
No, I am not a pedophile.
No, I am not a pedophile.
I believe lolicon should stop at 13... if they're not teenage, then it gets disgusting...
*no constructed arguments here boi!
art - this is art
this surpirses me actually, considering this is a hentai board, there are kids everywhere, its hard to tell age in hentia, unless its made obvious or you're told
The fact that this "lolicon" exists doesn;t bother me at all, not at all. Not that I've ever seen any, if you take away lolicons how with the pedofiles get thier kicks?
hmmmmm let us not think of that
"lolicon" is just another thing of hentai, along with tentacles it makes up the surreal part of hentai, what cant be done in real life, what makes hentai ultra unique
*dont get me wrong hentais about way more than that, but you get my point
Now I know people always vindicate pedofiles, but I feel sorry for them, i cant relate*so I cant understand, but most cant help themselves, it reminds me of how homo-sexuals have been treated in the past, 200 years ago being gay, was said to be evil *200, 1000 lord knows!" does this mean that in 200 years LOLICON WILL BE COMMONPLACE ON TV?
wouldn't surprise as people get more liberal in this world. I've never seen any myself. Maybey if you were forced to watch ALL the lolcon in the world you would find something that arouses you, *not nescacarily cosiousley* Just sometimes watching the opposite sex giving a display of raw sexual energy can be quite interesting, providing that there are no old men........ or yaoi...... h-yaoi depiction annoys me lol!
there hows that for a contruscted argument!
lol the crap I talk, the CRAP I talk!
art - this is art
this surpirses me actually, considering this is a hentai board, there are kids everywhere, its hard to tell age in hentia, unless its made obvious or you're told
The fact that this "lolicon" exists doesn;t bother me at all, not at all. Not that I've ever seen any, if you take away lolicons how with the pedofiles get thier kicks?
hmmmmm let us not think of that
"lolicon" is just another thing of hentai, along with tentacles it makes up the surreal part of hentai, what cant be done in real life, what makes hentai ultra unique
*dont get me wrong hentais about way more than that, but you get my point
Now I know people always vindicate pedofiles, but I feel sorry for them, i cant relate*so I cant understand, but most cant help themselves, it reminds me of how homo-sexuals have been treated in the past, 200 years ago being gay, was said to be evil *200, 1000 lord knows!" does this mean that in 200 years LOLICON WILL BE COMMONPLACE ON TV?
wouldn't surprise as people get more liberal in this world. I've never seen any myself. Maybey if you were forced to watch ALL the lolcon in the world you would find something that arouses you, *not nescacarily cosiousley* Just sometimes watching the opposite sex giving a display of raw sexual energy can be quite interesting, providing that there are no old men........ or yaoi...... h-yaoi depiction annoys me lol!
there hows that for a contruscted argument!
lol the crap I talk, the CRAP I talk!
I don't have anything against underaged anime girls as long as they are physically developed (keeping in mind it's not real), but the phenomenon of lolicon to all extremes is about as rampant as that of scat * watersports in japan, they just can't get enough of those extremes. I think it's just something that we're all going to have to accept as long as nobody tries to justify it as more than what it is or act on such depiction in the real world.
i dont have a thing for lolicons. i dont go around looking for them on the net.
but if an h-game of mine has lolis, then i guess i can stand for it. if the pics are part of the story of the game anyway.
but i hope that the lolicon count of hentai diminish soon. its just not natural.
i draw my age line at... hmm... 15 i guess.
---
pls note that i mean 15 yrs old as in anime girls who look 15 and above, not real life girls who are 15 yrs old. for real girls, my line will never go below 18.
but if an h-game of mine has lolis, then i guess i can stand for it. if the pics are part of the story of the game anyway.
but i hope that the lolicon count of hentai diminish soon. its just not natural.
i draw my age line at... hmm... 15 i guess.
---
pls note that i mean 15 yrs old as in anime girls who look 15 and above, not real life girls who are 15 yrs old. for real girls, my line will never go below 18.
A character looking child-like, okay character being a child not okay.
<<Lolita art itself is not baD, people desiring sex with underage, presumably vulnerable innocent children, IS!>>
Desiring sex with underage children isn't bad either. I don't buy this judgmental moral "this is wrong, this is right to think." I don't think ANYTHING is wrong to THINK. It's HAVING sex with underage children that is bad. I strongly believe that all people are free to have sexual fantasies about WHATEVER they want, whether it's kids, animals or trees. Fantasies do not make a person sick, it's when their desires turn into actions. As for Lolicon, who cares? It's a manifestion of fantasies. It's not real. They're animated. I don't see what's wrong with enjoying a forbidden fetish within the realm of drawings. Rape is illegal too, does that mean we should ban all rape hentai? Gay sex was illegal in some states, does that mean all yaoi is wrong? C'mon, people, it's freedom of expression. If you don't like it, don't watch it. But don't try to supress other people from it. I don't find it appealing (I like hentai females to be 16+), but some people do. And I can tell you that expressing fantasies in a medium such as fiction or television has been proven to DECREASE the acting out of those fantasies. The concept is, if you have an outlet to express your fantasies, you may be less likely to act out of sexual frustration. Regardless, people who like Lolicon are not necessarily pedophiles or likely to molest anybody. I happen to love rape hentai, but that doesn't mean I endorse rape or WANT to be raped. It's fake, it's a FANTASY. I was extremely pissed off at Kobe Bryant with that trial, so fantasies/penchants do not necessarily determine viewpoints when it comes to reality.
And I think you guys are being hypocritical. If you're over 25, the law says having sex with a fifteen year old is just as illegal as having sex with a 10 year old. Either dislike any underage depictions, or stop trying to inhibit others' tastes. MOST hentai depicts main female characters under the age of 17!
Desiring sex with underage children isn't bad either. I don't buy this judgmental moral "this is wrong, this is right to think." I don't think ANYTHING is wrong to THINK. It's HAVING sex with underage children that is bad. I strongly believe that all people are free to have sexual fantasies about WHATEVER they want, whether it's kids, animals or trees. Fantasies do not make a person sick, it's when their desires turn into actions. As for Lolicon, who cares? It's a manifestion of fantasies. It's not real. They're animated. I don't see what's wrong with enjoying a forbidden fetish within the realm of drawings. Rape is illegal too, does that mean we should ban all rape hentai? Gay sex was illegal in some states, does that mean all yaoi is wrong? C'mon, people, it's freedom of expression. If you don't like it, don't watch it. But don't try to supress other people from it. I don't find it appealing (I like hentai females to be 16+), but some people do. And I can tell you that expressing fantasies in a medium such as fiction or television has been proven to DECREASE the acting out of those fantasies. The concept is, if you have an outlet to express your fantasies, you may be less likely to act out of sexual frustration. Regardless, people who like Lolicon are not necessarily pedophiles or likely to molest anybody. I happen to love rape hentai, but that doesn't mean I endorse rape or WANT to be raped. It's fake, it's a FANTASY. I was extremely pissed off at Kobe Bryant with that trial, so fantasies/penchants do not necessarily determine viewpoints when it comes to reality.
And I think you guys are being hypocritical. If you're over 25, the law says having sex with a fifteen year old is just as illegal as having sex with a 10 year old. Either dislike any underage depictions, or stop trying to inhibit others' tastes. MOST hentai depicts main female characters under the age of 17!
lol trees....
Lolicon is cute, and I Love It. And That's That.
ps. i am not a pedophile either :P
Lolicon is cute, and I Love It. And That's That.
ps. i am not a pedophile either :P
My tipe of Loli dislike is the one that the girl IS under 12...Or when the story depicted the girl as a petite, almost flat-chested, and childish.
I really dont have much of a problem with it. Real people are not being portrayed and no one is being harmed. I simply see it as a form of art, and like any form of art, many people will be disgusted by it. It's definatly not one of my interests, though.
I only want to hit on a few things in one of the previous arguments for lolicon. Sorry if I'm pointing you out but I just don't agree on some of the things that you state or enough evidence is not in your argument (of course if your a true first amendment advocate, then me disagreeing shouldn't bother you at all :ass: ).
Problem 1
I quote from fanofdool "And I can tell you that expressing fantasies in a medium such as fiction or television has been proven to DECREASE the acting out of those fantasies". Please if you are going to try and state a fact give us where you heard this from a web link, book, journal or news article. This way we can validate this statement as a fact and not just something you think is fact.
Problem 2
I quote from fanofdool "And I think you guys are being hypocritical. If you're over 25, the law says having sex with a fifteen year old is just as illegal as having sex with a 10 year old". I believe the law in America is a 4 year gap is allowed I.E. 16 can date a 20 year old, 17 a 21 year old. Also according to the 2c statutes I believe people in positions that are thought as being influential IE a teacher or police officer can not even get close to someone that is 17 even if their 18 by law (of course it would be strange to ever see a teacher that young). Also I disagree about them and myself being hypocritical. The reason I think Lolicon is unusual is because it depicts minors that in no way without physical harm to themselves could they possibly have participated in such a sexual event. Now I know its a drawing but in most drawings I see I relate them to something that I think is real. So to me a drawing of girl that doesn't look like she even knows what puberty is, acting in some sexual manor upsets me a tad. Now we will delve into the complexities of a 15 year old vs a 10 year old in anime. I will be honest short of an Hentai product actually telling me a drawn character is 15 I wouldn't ever be able to tell the difference between them and a 18 year old. I say this because in all honesty 15 year olds and 18 year olds are very alike both physically the same; both mentally immature and both are in similar environments (I.E. School). While a 10 year old in anime is much more apparent to me because of the physical features attitude (she acts like a child) and dresses like one to. So instantly I feel that the undermatured hentai character is a child (even if it is a fantasty) and it does not appeal to me in any compacity to see her sexually used. :angryfire:
Well I hope I don't get you to riled up over me pointing you out I just wanted to hopefully clear a point up for you and possibly make you a better writer by backing up your "facts" with evidence. Alright have a good one!
-CAF
Problem 1
I quote from fanofdool "And I can tell you that expressing fantasies in a medium such as fiction or television has been proven to DECREASE the acting out of those fantasies". Please if you are going to try and state a fact give us where you heard this from a web link, book, journal or news article. This way we can validate this statement as a fact and not just something you think is fact.
Problem 2
I quote from fanofdool "And I think you guys are being hypocritical. If you're over 25, the law says having sex with a fifteen year old is just as illegal as having sex with a 10 year old". I believe the law in America is a 4 year gap is allowed I.E. 16 can date a 20 year old, 17 a 21 year old. Also according to the 2c statutes I believe people in positions that are thought as being influential IE a teacher or police officer can not even get close to someone that is 17 even if their 18 by law (of course it would be strange to ever see a teacher that young). Also I disagree about them and myself being hypocritical. The reason I think Lolicon is unusual is because it depicts minors that in no way without physical harm to themselves could they possibly have participated in such a sexual event. Now I know its a drawing but in most drawings I see I relate them to something that I think is real. So to me a drawing of girl that doesn't look like she even knows what puberty is, acting in some sexual manor upsets me a tad. Now we will delve into the complexities of a 15 year old vs a 10 year old in anime. I will be honest short of an Hentai product actually telling me a drawn character is 15 I wouldn't ever be able to tell the difference between them and a 18 year old. I say this because in all honesty 15 year olds and 18 year olds are very alike both physically the same; both mentally immature and both are in similar environments (I.E. School). While a 10 year old in anime is much more apparent to me because of the physical features attitude (she acts like a child) and dresses like one to. So instantly I feel that the undermatured hentai character is a child (even if it is a fantasty) and it does not appeal to me in any compacity to see her sexually used. :angryfire:
Well I hope I don't get you to riled up over me pointing you out I just wanted to hopefully clear a point up for you and possibly make you a better writer by backing up your "facts" with evidence. Alright have a good one!
-CAF
QUOTE (Confused Anime Fan @ Feb 16 2005, 11:37 PM)
I believe the law in America is a 4 year gap is allowed I.E. 16 can date a 20 year old, 17 a 21 year old.
I live in America, and that is definatly not the case. An 18 year old can be arrested as a sex offender by having sex with his/her 17 year old girl/boyfriend. It is considered statuatory rape for any adult to have sex with a minor.
To me, i really don't care, but i wont still there and watch it is something like the "odd stuff" of H where i can just over look quickly hopping not to remeber it
QUOTE (darklord_juno @ Feb 17 2005, 03:55 PM)
I live in America, and that is definatly not the case. An 18 year old can be arrested as a sex offender by having sex with his/her 17 year old girl/boyfriend. It is considered statuatory rape for any adult to have sex with a minor.
Most people dont know this but age of consent is actually a state law, there are some federal regulations on it but its still up to the state, where i live 16 is the age of concent so at the age of 16 your allowed to have sex, you can also get married, and if your 14 or older you can actually get married with concent of your parents and a judge, i just found out about lolicon recently and i dont see what the problem with it is.
I agree with the earlyer comment that said that its just fantasy, its like someone who likes rape hentai there seems to be allot of ppl that are interested in that kind of thing and i dont really mind it but when it comes to the real thing it makes me sick. Its kind of like violence on tv just because i watch rambo blow some sh*t up doesnt mean im going to go out and start shooting people.
QUOTE (makeinstallclean @ Feb 28 2005, 11:15 AM)
Most people dont know this but age of consent is actually a state law, there are some federal regulations on it but its still up to the state, where i live 16 is the age of concent so at the age of 16 your allowed to have sex, you can also get married, and if your 14 or older you can actually get married with concent of your parents and a judge
I know about the state laws, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I am pretty sure that they only apply to sex between two minors. As for getting married, I am pretty sure that the law usually allows for marriage sometime before the age of 18 (although I have only heard of a few cases of this happening in recent times.)
Ok, I went and purchased a New Jersey 2C law code book. Hopefully this will help clear things up a tad.
-Under the Sexual Offenses section 2c-14 (crimes that are sexual in nature) it states what is illegal in the case of a minor. Their are a total of 3 statutes in this section. In the name of saving space and not going on to long i will focus on sexual assault and Criminal Sexual contact and will not go into the subcatagories for lewdness. 2C:14-1 is definitions and 2C:14-2.1 is a victims right to consult with a prosecutor on plea negotioations.
(this is gonna be a long one)
--2C:14-2 - Sexual Assault
a. An Actor is guilty of aggravated sexual assault if he commits an act of sexual penetration with another person under any one of the following circumstances:
(1)The victim is less than 13 years old;
(2)The victim is at least 13 but less than 16 years old and
(a)The actor is related to the victim by blood or affinity to the third degree, or
(b)The actor has supervisory or disciplinary power over the victim by virtue of the actor's legal, proffesional, or occupational status, or
©The actor is a foster parent, a gaurdian, or stands in loco partentis within the household;
(3)The act is committed during the commission, or attempted commission, whether alone or with one or more other persons, or robbery, kidnapping, homicide, aggravated assault on another, breaking and entering, burglary, arson or criminal escape;
(4)The actor is armed with a weapon or any object fashioned in such a manner as to lead the victim to reasonably believe it to be a weapon and threatens by word or hesture to use the weapon or object;
(5)The actor is aided or abetted by one or more other persons and the actor uses physical force or coercion;
(6)The actor uses physical force or coercion and severe personal injury is sustained by the victim;
(7)The victim is one whom the actor knew or should have known was physically helpless, mentally defective or mentally incapacitated.
Aggravated Sexual assault is a crime of the first degree.
b.An actor is guilty of sexual assault is he commits an act of sexual assault if he commits an act of sexual contact with a victim who is less than 13 years old and the actor is at least 4 years older than the victim.
c.An actor is guilty of sexual assault if he commits an act of sexual penetration with another person under any one of the following circumstances:
(1)The actor uses physical force or coercion, but the victim does not sustain severe personal injury;
(2)The victim is on probation or parole, or is detained in a hospital, prison or other institution and the actor has supervisory or disciplinary power over the victim by virtue of the actor's legal, professional or occupational status;
(3)The victim is at least 16 but less than 18 years old and:
(a)The actor is related to the victim by blood or affinity the the third degree; or
(b)The actor has supervisory or disciplinary power of any nature or in any capacity over the victim; or
©The actor is a foster parent, a gaurdian, or stands in loco parentis within the household;
(4)The victim is at least 13 but less than 16 years old and the actor is at least four years older than the victim.
Sexual assault is a crime of the second degree.
--2C:14-3 - Criminal Sexual Contact
a. An actor is guilty of aggravated criminal sexual contact if he commits an act of sexual contact with the victim under any of the circumstances set forth in 2C:14-2, a (2) through (7).
Aggravated criminal sexual contact is a crime of the third degree.
b. An Actor is guilty of criminal if he commits an act of sexual contact with the victim under anu of the circumstances set forth in section 2C:14-2, c. (1) through (4).
Criminal Sexual contact is a crime of the fourth degree.
--2C:14-4 - a. Lewdness
(A person commits a disorderly persons offense if he does any flagrantly lewd and offensive act which he knows or reasonably expects is likely to be observed by other nonconsenting persons who would be affronted or alarmed."
Conclusion:
As we can see their is a 4 year clause in the New Jersey state statutes which is what governs all cases of sexual assault in this state. Also interestingly enough a person that is a head of a house hold or police/teacher is guilty of sexual assault if the persons is 16 or 17. Well so their you have it. so technically a 19 year old could have sex with a 16 year old without reprocussion. Well, as long as consent was involved. Alright just thought I would share some of the NJ law with you guys.
:biggrin:
-Under the Sexual Offenses section 2c-14 (crimes that are sexual in nature) it states what is illegal in the case of a minor. Their are a total of 3 statutes in this section. In the name of saving space and not going on to long i will focus on sexual assault and Criminal Sexual contact and will not go into the subcatagories for lewdness. 2C:14-1 is definitions and 2C:14-2.1 is a victims right to consult with a prosecutor on plea negotioations.
(this is gonna be a long one)
--2C:14-2 - Sexual Assault
a. An Actor is guilty of aggravated sexual assault if he commits an act of sexual penetration with another person under any one of the following circumstances:
(1)The victim is less than 13 years old;
(2)The victim is at least 13 but less than 16 years old and
(a)The actor is related to the victim by blood or affinity to the third degree, or
(b)The actor has supervisory or disciplinary power over the victim by virtue of the actor's legal, proffesional, or occupational status, or
©The actor is a foster parent, a gaurdian, or stands in loco partentis within the household;
(3)The act is committed during the commission, or attempted commission, whether alone or with one or more other persons, or robbery, kidnapping, homicide, aggravated assault on another, breaking and entering, burglary, arson or criminal escape;
(4)The actor is armed with a weapon or any object fashioned in such a manner as to lead the victim to reasonably believe it to be a weapon and threatens by word or hesture to use the weapon or object;
(5)The actor is aided or abetted by one or more other persons and the actor uses physical force or coercion;
(6)The actor uses physical force or coercion and severe personal injury is sustained by the victim;
(7)The victim is one whom the actor knew or should have known was physically helpless, mentally defective or mentally incapacitated.
Aggravated Sexual assault is a crime of the first degree.
b.An actor is guilty of sexual assault is he commits an act of sexual assault if he commits an act of sexual contact with a victim who is less than 13 years old and the actor is at least 4 years older than the victim.
c.An actor is guilty of sexual assault if he commits an act of sexual penetration with another person under any one of the following circumstances:
(1)The actor uses physical force or coercion, but the victim does not sustain severe personal injury;
(2)The victim is on probation or parole, or is detained in a hospital, prison or other institution and the actor has supervisory or disciplinary power over the victim by virtue of the actor's legal, professional or occupational status;
(3)The victim is at least 16 but less than 18 years old and:
(a)The actor is related to the victim by blood or affinity the the third degree; or
(b)The actor has supervisory or disciplinary power of any nature or in any capacity over the victim; or
©The actor is a foster parent, a gaurdian, or stands in loco parentis within the household;
(4)The victim is at least 13 but less than 16 years old and the actor is at least four years older than the victim.
Sexual assault is a crime of the second degree.
--2C:14-3 - Criminal Sexual Contact
a. An actor is guilty of aggravated criminal sexual contact if he commits an act of sexual contact with the victim under any of the circumstances set forth in 2C:14-2, a (2) through (7).
Aggravated criminal sexual contact is a crime of the third degree.
b. An Actor is guilty of criminal if he commits an act of sexual contact with the victim under anu of the circumstances set forth in section 2C:14-2, c. (1) through (4).
Criminal Sexual contact is a crime of the fourth degree.
--2C:14-4 - a. Lewdness
(A person commits a disorderly persons offense if he does any flagrantly lewd and offensive act which he knows or reasonably expects is likely to be observed by other nonconsenting persons who would be affronted or alarmed."
Conclusion:
As we can see their is a 4 year clause in the New Jersey state statutes which is what governs all cases of sexual assault in this state. Also interestingly enough a person that is a head of a house hold or police/teacher is guilty of sexual assault if the persons is 16 or 17. Well so their you have it. so technically a 19 year old could have sex with a 16 year old without reprocussion. Well, as long as consent was involved. Alright just thought I would share some of the NJ law with you guys.
:biggrin:
QUOTE (Confused Anime Fan @ Feb 28 2005, 10:22 PM)
Alright just thought I would share some of the NJ law with you guys.
You know, this is what makes others think you're gonna go commit rape where there will be the least consequences... or maybe not... :hehe:
QUOTE (darklord_juno @ Feb 28 2005, 06:41 PM)
I know about the state laws, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I am pretty sure that they only apply to sex between two minors. As for getting married, I am pretty sure that the law usually allows for marriage sometime before the age of 18 (although I have only heard of a few cases of this happening in recent times.)
It applys to minors and adults, aslong as the minors are not mentally handy capped, the company i used to work for did an online sex offenders list for our county and so i looked it up at that time. I think that the 4 year difference is actually better since it restricts sex to ppl that are more then likely at the same level of maturity.
Nice find, confused. I guess it is a lot different throughout the states. I think the four year difference law is a good idea too. I know that in Florida (where I live), there have been cases of people being labeled as sex offenders because of a 1 year difference (18 year old/ 17 year old). I think that is just wrong. I say that we need more sensible sex laws and New Jersey's would be a good example to follow.
Im glad the NJ 2C laws showed you a little bit about how this state works. Its really funny to see how many states have different laws on the same thing. Personally, I see good reason for the Sexual assault laws. one it helps clearly define what is considered a "mature" person who can understand and comprehend sexual acts. Also, it helps set boarders for people that would be willing to exploit those who do not fully comprehend the act and what its reprocussions are (IE. Childbirth, Disease and such). Oh and for the people that have some interest in law in general here are some funny ones. http://www.lawguru.com/weird/ :laugh:
:shocked: there not much i can say other than, this is just wrong :eek:
BTW, it's no wonder that's lolikon appeared in Japan. First of all in feudal Japan men could marry after they became 15 years, and usually their wives were yonger than the husbands. Besides Japanese could always have sex with maiko - the underage girls who were trained to become geishas one day. But nowadays there no Yoshivaras (blocks where japanese prostitutes lived) in Japan and a girl can become maiko only when she turned 18. Guys can marry only when they turned 18 (btw, girls can marry right after they turned 16). So to compensate the lack of underaged sex Japanese invented lolicon.
(It's a rather old quote but nevermind, I have some things to say on this topic). But let's remember how homosexuality were treated in Ancient Greece or Ancient Rome for example. How they were treated? Homosexuality considered normal. Moreover, every legionary of Rome had an underaged boy who was to help him. Of cause the had sex also and nobody concidered it illegal or strange.
BTW, nowadays there are a lot of countries when the legal age for sex is lower then 18. In Great Britain it's 16, in Russia it's 14 (OK, it was 14 a year ago, now it's 16, but some people say that probably the law will be reversed) and in Thailand (through the legal age to marry is 15 and the legal age to sell your love is 18) you can easily pick up 12 year girl or boy and nobody will call police (of cause you need to know the right places, but there are pleny of these in Pattaya, for instace).
Did smb read Shakespeare? "Romeo and Juliet" at least? How do you think, how old was Juliet when she screwed with Romeo? She was 14. And in what age her mother gave birth to her? I tell you. In the age of 13!
In the end I'd like to tell you about a spectacular fact: one girl in South America (I don't remember the country) managed to become a grandmother in the age of 13. She gave birth in the age of 8 and the her daughter gave birth at the age of 6. Pretty peculiar, eh? I remember, that smb in this topic said that 13 is to little to have sex. Come on guys, some girls are grandmothers at this age!
QUOTE
it reminds me of how homo-sexuals have been treated in the past, 200 years ago being gay, was said to be evil
(It's a rather old quote but nevermind, I have some things to say on this topic). But let's remember how homosexuality were treated in Ancient Greece or Ancient Rome for example. How they were treated? Homosexuality considered normal. Moreover, every legionary of Rome had an underaged boy who was to help him. Of cause the had sex also and nobody concidered it illegal or strange.
BTW, nowadays there are a lot of countries when the legal age for sex is lower then 18. In Great Britain it's 16, in Russia it's 14 (OK, it was 14 a year ago, now it's 16, but some people say that probably the law will be reversed) and in Thailand (through the legal age to marry is 15 and the legal age to sell your love is 18) you can easily pick up 12 year girl or boy and nobody will call police (of cause you need to know the right places, but there are pleny of these in Pattaya, for instace).
Did smb read Shakespeare? "Romeo and Juliet" at least? How do you think, how old was Juliet when she screwed with Romeo? She was 14. And in what age her mother gave birth to her? I tell you. In the age of 13!
In the end I'd like to tell you about a spectacular fact: one girl in South America (I don't remember the country) managed to become a grandmother in the age of 13. She gave birth in the age of 8 and the her daughter gave birth at the age of 6. Pretty peculiar, eh? I remember, that smb in this topic said that 13 is to little to have sex. Come on guys, some girls are grandmothers at this age!
Well, I don't condone any minor having any type of sexual relation especially at that age. If you noticed alot of third world countries are moving away from the underage thing. Thailand does not condone it either, in fact alot of people in the country are having a rampant issue with it. The reason their goverment isn't doing anything about it is simple their is no monitary gain for the goverment. It's the same reason America doesn't do anything about disease's and poverty in Africa even though they are more stricken with problems than Iraq. The truth is as long as corrupt governments stay in power bad things like child abuse and rape will continue to be ignored in third world countries. Finally, I think 18 is a fair age for people to be considered adults the truth is most teenagers are so filled with hormones if it was any later they would explode (no pun intended). :biggrin:
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