no need to apologize for being "tackless" (sic). :) we are here to talk about issues. if you want to be blunt, it's okeh. ^_^

now... regarding some of your issues... whoo!! there are a lot! :biggrin:



i could send you links... i'm too lazy. :sleep: but GMA's dad... good ol' prez macapagal was honored for getting the philippines as second only in japan. and he was BEFORE marcos. if you want to contest that, you can just look up the statistics in the UN, cos i'm just telling you what i found there, man.



so they wrote it on college history textbooks? ??? who's they? ??? cos i went to college so i must've read ample books. :biggrin: as for japan... they never hid their participation during WWII from their youth. never never! what they did hide was the wartime brutalities. look at the books in the japanese embassy. ^_^



i did remember my history right. i was alive and kickin' during both revolutions, you see. i even have a picture of me dressed in yellow complete with yellow suspenders, yellow headband, and wearing a ninoy aquino shirt, "hindi ka nag-iisa" with my mom and my little sister. (also in yellow.) wanna see? :blush:



of course it's not impossible... i forget... i mean, the odds of him leading the philippines is like 1 to 1 million. still possible!!! :shocked: and the odds of paid assassins out to get him... hnn... 1 to 100... with the possibility of him dying by an assassin's bullet. hnn... that made me think... cos isn't the man like... 80 plus years old and very sick already. i think the assassins are thinking twice at this time.



oh sorry... i mean... since you had to explain it and all.... :sweatface:



see, you've just proven my point. all i said was that most filipinos do is complain. pointing out the problem instead of solutions.

and yes, you are entitled to your own opinion. i respect your passion about it. trust me, been there... done that. i am someone who can be overly passionate about things but proved that debates are not good if people are not open so nothing will be resolved. this is why most of the things i said about your post are in jest! (the facts are quite astonishing too. i think you have to check on that when your head is cooler.)

finally, since you quoted touga, i think it's appropriate i quote utena:
watashi wa sekai wo kaeru.
(I will change the world.)

btw... if you didn't register for the elections, you can still vote if you voted the last time. that just means you didn't validate it. here's your chance to exercise your civic duty for the liberty you are experiencing now from both revolutions and justify your views.

nope, I won't contest anymore. my sources are different and we can just believe what we want to believe... :wink:


um, I was pointing out on your reply that perhaps it was about the Philippines being corrupt since the Spanish regime. and they, I meant historians. nope, not all college history textbooks have information on this (corruption, militarization, the martial law shebang. the last time I checked, it's the same run-in-the mill history that we know, same heroes, same colonialists, but nothing about the "brutalities" like Japanese history...) and "hid their participation": like you said, Japan hid their wartime brutalities, which is a large part of their participation during the war.

since you're a part of EDSA I, you know well that around EDSA it was peaceful. but I wasn't talking about that part of the revolution only. behind the mass of people rallying, people are getting killed, arrested, harassed, what have you...if you need references, there are plenty of documentaries around, books and videos, depending on your preference...I'd recommend "Kaaway: Ibagsak ang Imperyalista!" but I forgot which organization produce it...oh well...

um...but I replied on what you said that "it's like telling a filipino street kid that he's there cos our society is corrupt and he's there cos his parents are too" and sure...75% of Filipinos think like I probably do because something IS wrong. and no, most of them don't just complain. if you see boycotters around SM, that's an example of a solution being implemented. but do they get heard? most likely not...and there are more like them around the country. how do I know? first hand :biggrin:

I respect your opinion too sempai. my last post was mainly about clarifying my other post. as much as possible, I don't like misunderstandings and I'm always willing to compromise. the facts I mentioned are simply facts, if it's too unbelievable to accept that things like such is happening in this country, like I said, we can just believe what we want to believe. I apologize if I failed to notice that most of what you said were in jest...I guess I missed out the punchline...I think it's mainly because I don't take issues like this too lightly.

anyway, thanks for your time sempai...I appreciate your honesty :ok:

tsuishin: this election should've been my first time to vote...I'd have to wait for the next elections before I can register. thanks for the advice :)

Enrile is 3RD in the senatorial race survey!!! NOOOOOO!!!
Even though I personally don't believe surveys are reliable, seeing Enrile's face in the top makes me...*ugh*

I don't like him and his platform is near impossibility. Abolish PPA! sounds good but still no.

sou~! I can only think of one word right now...TRAPO (traditional politician; dirty rag)

and here's a corresponding song: :rofl: (I don't think I've to translate this...gomen to those who can't understand the lyrics... :sweatface:)

Trapo
(D. Abay, E. Gancio)

Jueteng at illegal logging
Me sideline, rape at kidnapping
Dealer ng shabu at UZI
Commander ng private army!

Me-ari ng subdivision
Stockholder ng corporation
Landlord na, landgrabber pa
Anak ka ng bobong tanga!

Ang hirap mong hulihin
Lahat kaya mong bilhin
Wala kang silbe, wala kang silbe sa amin.

Trapo, trapo ka kase
Trapo, trapo, trapo ka kase.
Di na binoboto pero nananalo.

Me misis pero siyam ang kabit
Na-adik kaya sabik na sabik
Ang kapal mo, hindi ka manipis
Ginugudtaym mo lang ang aming buwis!

Mas maraming absent kesa present
Di ginagawa kanyang assignment
Mula Lunes hanggang Biyernes
Wala sa Kongres, panay ang beauty rest!

Ang sarap mong ihawin
Ipalamon sa mga pating
Wala kang silbe, wala kang silbe sa amin.

Daming kalokohan pero napagtatakpan.

Kao: translation, please.

I wish I registered. The more I see people campaigning for Bro. Eddie Villanueva OUT OF THEIR OWN POCKETS, the more I feel that he's not as bad as the surveys paint him to be...

hai~!

here's the rough translation of TRAPO (TRAditional POlitician)

Jueteng and illegal logging
(Has a) sideline, rape and kidnapping
Dealer of shabu and UZI
Commander of a private army!

Owner of a subdivision
Stockholder of a corporation
Already a landlord, then a landgrabber too
Son of a (stupid) (moron)!

It's so hard to get you arrested
You can buy everything
You are useless, you are useless to us.

Trapo, trapo (cause you're a)
Trapo, trapo, trapo (cause you're a).
Nobody's voting (for you), but (you) keep on winning .

Has a wife but the mistresses are nine
Got addicted that's why (you're) too excited (or simply: why you're oversexed)
You're impudent, you're not modest (sung in a very sarcastic tone/very rough trans: You're thick, you're not thin)
You're just having a good time with our taxes!

Has more absences than presence
Not doing his assignment
From Monday to Friday
Missing in the Congress, always out to beauty rest!

It would be fun to broil/grill you
To be fed to the sharks
You are useless, useless to us.

So many anomalies, but are always being covered up.

~~~~
I also failed to register...I know how you feel... :sad: I think people are just indifferent with Eddie Villanueva because he was a religious leader of an Evangelical group (given that the majority of Filipinos are Catholics and we have a law about the separation of the Church and Government)...I believe he is a competent candidate :ok:

There are sooooo many FPJ campaign ads on TV. I think he's trying to make-up for those survey results now that the campaign is reaching it's last minutes. How about that political ad law.

Tell that to GMA as well, Pesmerga. And the way I see it, GMA has this in the bag. Any votes she would lack, she would have the machinery to cheat for, even more so than FPJ could.

And I was hoping that people would come around and realize Bro. Eddie Villanueva is the most sensible choice, barring "winnability".

GMA has those big streamer ads along Manila even before the campaign began. Even though they are not campaign ads, they do signify so. How about Eddie Gil's commercial. No TV station wanted to show that thing to people. :laugh:

Bro. Eddie's comment on Roco: Would you like to be my foreign affairs secretary?

Ping and FPJ: Talks, talks and talks but no one likes to stepdown.


Whooo, the competition is heating up with 10 days to go!!!

Let's VOTE!!!!

Here's a spin: now that GMA is in the lead in surveys, let's convince all those who are planning to vote for her just to assure a non-FPJ victory (and secretly supporting other candidates) that their vote is no longer needed by GMA! Convince them to vote for who they really want to vote for and not have to vote for someone just because she's the "only one with a fighting chance". :D

Here's another thought by one of our bosses: what would prevent FPJ supporters from crying "foul!" should FPJ lose in the coming elections? Having him lose not only by a wide margin, but with a 3rd or 4th place finish. It'll be the ultimate lesson for Sotto, Angara, and the other king-makers...

Speaking of FPJ, just met him a little while ago. Well, not really met but our vehicle intercepted his campaign motorcade at Floodway Cainta. Anyways, the people there mostly squatters from their looks, houses (shanty/barong-barong) and ALL THOSE ELECTRICAL WIRE TAPS!!! Almost all of them shouted FPJ! FPJ! while flocking the highway on both sides trying to see him, and reducing road's area to a oneway type one.

BAD NEWS: Stranded for some time because of FPJ's motorcade has the most priority of getting through. Not to mention its quite long since local candidates of KNP also joined in the fray. As well as kids sitting, rolling and jumping around the road even after FPJ's troops already left.

FPJ was throwing candies to the very delighted fans while wearing dark sunglasses even in the night (it was around 8 pm then). He was nothing special in person. I almost made a second take because he just seems to be like everyone else. The one you would ask somewhat for a light of cigarette (based on my exp). I find nothing special about him.

Originally a post reply from Innotech in the 'Who are you voting for? - USA, US Edition' thread.


*ehem*let's see....

Oohh...arigato for the good word. :blush: (now I know how Priam felt when Achilles talked abt him....not that I'm implying I'm a Malaysian Peter O'Toole or anything. :sweatface: :peace: )
On the bit on communism being a threat to the world.....can you please define a bit on that?I find it hard to believe that just because a nation does not practice democracy, it qualifies itself to be labeled a threat to the world and the rest of human society.


This is not true.In reality there is no accurate way to judge or calculate the demand of society, regardless of what market system you are using. For example in the free market, in order for you to calculate the demand of society using the theory of demand & supply, several assumptions must be made and these underlying assumptions that are made must match the state of the market.
In short, it is just assumptions...made to guess the pattern of demand and such.
I'm not going to deny that such methods are not useful.....I'm just saying that it is not accurate.Certain outside factors beyond our control also plays a part.

You may be right abt the Redistribution thing so I'm not going to argue in detail and defend the Communist system and such.Like I said earlier in the 'Who are you voting for? - USA', I find some traits and ideals of the Communistic commendable if not admireable(I'm a sucker for the whole 'peace,equality and prosperity to all members of society thingy'.Can I be considered an idealist? :sweatface: ).I didn't I say I find the WHOLE ideology commendable or admireable.Just some....that's all. :wink:

major props to eddie gil. i've found respect for the man. almost nobody could have come up with a better plan than he did. and nobody got hurt, too :ok:

True, true. Now, he's the William Hung of the Philippines...

You have to respect the man the moment he steps out of politics...

Aparently both Kerry and Nancy Reagan have appealed to Bush to allow stem cell research. No point me butchering the discussion so just have a look over here (from cnn btw)

You want Politics?
OOOOOOOh Kay , what's bugging me here in the USof A is that Bush keeps having little lucky streaks laced in disaster , his polls are down last Winter, oh look we found Saddam ! After 9-11 , the country begins to doubt his
Patriots Act, uh oh! they found ANTHRAX in the mail !!( Whatever happened to that investigation??) See we need to be more paranoid!? It's ok if we lose more of our privacy and rights in the name of national security, right Adolf? ooops, did I say that? where did that come from?
Is this government still being run by the people? No, not really, we were neatly led to a slaughter of everything this country holds dear, and for what reason? ENERGY, all roads keep leading to the BIG ENERGY GRAB of The MILLENNIUM, we have more control of it now, yet, prices for it are at an all time high , and if we look at ENRONS connection to our Vice President , the picture gets even more scary don't it? I can validate my suspicions about the Bush agenda further more, what was the first thing he did after taking office (one of them)? He repealed the Alaskan Wilderness Conservation Act, as well as a few other laws protecting the enviroment against greedy energy concerns. You folks oversea might think us Americans don't care, or even realise what our leaders are doing, we do, but we are a nation being held economic hostage, Im living in a state (California) where it takes a family to hold 2 eight hour jobs or more to barely survive and feed their kids. While, I, can't even gain a single minimum wage job, because of reason unknown to me in the past eight-nine months. We are in Iraq to pursue justice, right? Free those poor people from a life ALIEN to Western IDEALS, (mostly by having our soldiers kill off segments of their community for looking at us the wrong way, and pillaging their meager belongings, like Vikings). Let me end my rant by saying, I dont know if John Kerry will be better for this country, but I'm sure we can't endure FOUR more years of George W. Bush and his gang of con-artists!!!! :disagree: :disagree: :disagree: We should have stayed in Afghanistan and hunted down BIN-Laden , but he was never part of the plan, merely a decoy to
settle an old score from 10 years ago, and gain control of all the energy concerns...

He does seem to have a big bag of disasters that he can delve into anytime he needs a poll boost or a reason to curtail personal liberty. Still, land of the free eh?

Those of you who might say "this guy is just bitter because he's paying like all of us are at the pumps for gasoline" I actually don't own a car, but I can still read between the lines , the surge in utilities caused by intentional shut downs for maintenance of California power plants to drive up the cost, the current lack of functioning oil refineries that are being manipulated by Oill Co.s to fill their pockets,
I think the Bush Administration knows it's on the way out of office, and they are soaking us even harder to get everything they can before the other Administration
comes in to power.

Haven't the filipino election results come through? I'm sure I read yesterday that the current president won annother term.

Yeah, but thats not the end of it. (at least I think so...)

Well the Democrats are doing their best to prevent this. Nominating - well almost nominated since he'll probably not accept it at the Dem. convention in order to do more fundraising - the lifeless, flip-flopping, and generally undesireable John Kerry. Ever notice that he does best in the polls when he is not in the media spotlight? It's also not a good sign when there's more attention given to a former President's book than the current presidential canidate. As the economy improves Bush will widen the gap between him and Kerry.

Don't have time to go over all of your points right now... maybe this evening.

Its far from over, there is still a joint-session in Congress where they will go over the report of the Board of Canvassers. But the counting of votes has been finished.

Like you I haven't got time for a proper responce (there's important football to be watched :biggrin: ) but just to quickly say, since this is calm in the presidential race it's not suprising a potentially very exiting book (though aparently snoozeworthy) is taking the political headlines.

Plus the economic recovery is far from assured, especially for the little cared about plebs and I think the rushed hand over of Iraq still has time to rear its ugly head. Anyway isn't flip flopping just a synonim (sp?) for multi latereral in the republican dictionary :wink:

Clinton's book: IIRC there's an AP story today that talks about how most book critics, even from the left-of-center New York Times, are panning the book. There's another story, I think originating from the Washington Post, which points out some inaccuracies in the book. There's even one where his writing contradicts what he said under oath...

Clinton is a great example of why a person can and should only serve in the White House for eight years.

US Economy: Has been gradually improving this year. Just take a look at job growth. Unfortunately the media has been really slow on reporting this.

Flip Floppin: Sure, both parties are guilty of such to varying degrees, but Kerry is really bad at this... almost the poster boy. Touts he'll be strong with defense, but he has voted against every major military weapons system ever since he went into Congress, and voted against appropriating money to buy body armor for US soldiers in Iraq. Says that SUV's are bad for the environment, but its been documented that his family owns at least one. Says that a lot of foreign leaders have told him that they want him to be the next president, but refuses to mention a single one. And the list could go on...

Can't say that I've heard the term "multilateral" used much from the Republicans. ???

@LPTD

In regards to California - I'm skipping over a lot of your stuff 'cause its baseless ranting - I thought the problems there were caused from a couple decades of fiscal mismanagement and half-baked social engineering, and not from the few years Bush was prez. California already had an atrocious cost of living rate before he took office. The energy crisis in California which you seem to pin solely and unfairly upon Bush had a lot to do with this when the two major culprits were a private company, Enron, and the incompetence of then Governer Gray Davis.

Sorry if I was unclear, I meant that republicans say someone flip flops when they seek to be multilateral. For me having more than one stance on an issue can indicate a knowledge that political matters rarely are cut and dried. One of my many problems with Bush is his over simplification of issues. Kerry on the other hand may seem to dither in public (which may be his downfall) but soundbites for electioneering are just that. They show no aptitude for government only aptitude for getting there.

To highlight defence, I think again it is a realist simplification that being strong on defence means more spending. This is not per se the case. Once could easily be strong on defence whilst opposing bad measures put forward, the star wars missile defence would reduce security not increase it. Neo realists, especially the Reagan government that the current administration states it emulates, wanted to perpetuate the cold war since a bipolar power system is stable. I could go on about Reagan but as the adage goes, De mortus nil nisi bonnum (GCSE latin don't fail me now.)

Just take a look at Kerry's voting record. It speaks for itself.

On defense, Star Wars was meant to work on multiple levels; military, economic, and political. It's definitely nice to ensure safety for your people from ICBMs and other nasty nuclear delivery systems; if you have a stronger economy, you can outspend your rival; and you can pressure your rival to the meeting table.

The only way you get peace is through victory. That means having superior firepower & firm resolve, and not passing meaningless UN Resolutions or through appeasement. If you have a set of benign superpowers that no one wants to mess with, then you can have peace.

IIRC, didn't Reagan want to end the Cold War?

:rant:

ranting my friend ? no doubts there , Baseless on the other hand? Hey opinions are like bellybuttons everyone's got them. I'm pro no party Gov. but if you made me pick one I'd go Democrat , probably because I lived with such a stern Republican his blind loyalty and Clinton bashing drove me insane.

That out of the way, let me tell you if job growth is on the rise I should be getting a call from any one of the 35 places I've applied at it over this year so far. Hey my phone is still quiet, and I have no work.

There's no easy answer but I feel in my heart George W. Bush is not the man that will change things for the better, as we get closer to election time things are magically getting better? Um, Reality check time. IMO.
You will not be able to sway me to see things your way, fox, I want to rant and this is the forum I chose for it...

I'm not ranting about economic and job growth.

Hey, I'm in the same boat you are with searching for jobs. It's never really fun living with your parents after you've graduated from college, but considering you've already applied for 35 or so job positions... doesn't that indicate something?

Bush may not be the best, but Kerry is much, much worse.

Shameless opertunism I know but...

Looking at the june 2nd job figures, only 112,000 new non farm jobs were created (much lower than previous months and half that predicted by the analysts.) Plus the figures released for march and april has also been revised down.

To add to this the manufacturing sector is again loosing jobs and the unemployment rate is still at 5.6%.

Then we have the lovely fact that over a million more unemployed since the start of the Bush government.

Now that Kerry has got his running partner sorted out (not that it ever makes much difference though I am looking forward to Edwards laying into Cheney later on this year) his platform will be tightened up and after the democrat convention I can see him pulling about 8 points clear in the opinion polls.

I can actually see the economy taking a turn for the worse. The current account deficit is looking ominous and the dollar is taking quite a beating. Taking this into account, especially looking at the past couple of months supposed economic boost not helping Bush in the polls, I think he's got to be a little concerned.

Edwards was a bad choice for Kerry. He lacks experience - Kerry even reamed him on this in the primary, he did very little as a congressman, if he hadn't resigned from Congress most political analysts speculate that he wouldn't have won reelection, and he's a trial lawyer who made his fortune on junk science. America doesn't need a trial lawyer in the VP position.

Oh, I'm pretty sure Cheney will walk all over Edwards in the debate.



Mostly due to Clinton's poor economic policies and 9/11...

I'm willing to bet job growth will pick up by September if not sooner.

By september it will be too late, more often than not the candidate that's ahead by the time things have settled down in september goes on to win.

As for Edwards being the wrong choice, after McCain opted out of being on the ticket he was the only logical choice. Clinton (Mrs that is) is waiting for 2008 and the rest are perennial also rans.

Edwards will balance the ticket in many ways, his natuaral charisma balances the rather staid manner of Kerry, his rags to riches story balances the rather high brow upbringing of Kerry plus, even though a running mate doesn't make that much difference, i.e. enough to bring a state (not since Lindon B anyway) having a southerner on the ticket will make the Bush camp have to spend a little more money than they would have liked to ensure some states.

As for him being a trial Lawyer (and I'm going to paraphrase from the Economist here) "oponents in North Carolina were never able to persuade voters that that arguing a legal case for small children injured by corporate negligence was such a bad thing". I think this will ring true throughout America.

I agree however that some normally neutral buisness groups may offically support the republicans because of this appointment but I think this is mostly blowing off steam at the moment.

The other worring thing for me is that debate. For me it should be a walkover but for some reason people may be wooed by Cheney's pro business stance (halliburton anyone?) and his experience in national security (don't get me started). In both he shows a disregard for the American people and sells them up (or is it down?) the river for business buddies and for a misguided attempt at world dominance by keeping the world unsafe.

It's all good if you not only tell people what they want to hear but also what it is that they want to hear.

Still, I'm still betting on an upset.

Kerry conceded. Four more years of Bush.

Want to start a poll on which country he bombs next? :sweatface:

Heh. Maybe he'll do a GMA and suddenly be low-key.

I can't wait to see if Hillary Clinton will run for president, though... she has the potential to wing it.

I'd rather see Bill Clinton back. I think it was a lot funnier when he was the US prez.

Great, now my country also declares war on extremist moslims after they shot a famous filmmaker.

<sigh> I never would have expected something like that to happen in Holland....
We have the biggest percentage of Moslim population of allmost all of the Western world thanks to our generous policy on imigrants and all of our tolerance, all of that is over now....

The Islam and Cristianity aren't that much alike to me, The Islam isn't evil, it just worries me to see wicked poeple using it as a means of power.

I'm really saddened to hear over the matter of Theo Van Gogh's murder.Murder is always wrong as all religion(especially religions of the people from the Book) stated so and this murder have done more damage to Islam and European Muslims right now after the whole terrorist thing since 9-11 and the Madrid bombings. These terrorists which claims to be fighting for Islam is only damaging the religion and its people just because these frustred extremists are using it for their own propaganda and self-righteous motives which are un-Islamic in nature itself.Extremists of any religion is a bad, as I believe tolerance plays a key factor in faith to one's religion.

I am however upset on Dutch parliament speaker Jozias van Aartsen statement when he said "The jihad (holy war) has come to the Netherlands,..." (taken from Europe's Associated Press).Just what does he know about Jihad?If his mindset thinks that jihad is an exclusive Islamic term associated only in 'Holy War',then I think he's totally ignorant if not prejudiced, and needs to read more or ask some Muslim(or if he prefers Islamic scholars found in almost all European universisties) on the definition of Jihad before using that word so freely and ignorantly.
Jihad is Arabic for 'struggle' and its context expands much more than just 'the Holy War' thing made popular during the Crusades.Jihad's real meaning in Islam is to struggle with oneself and its environment so that a Muslim can improve and strive himself, his family and his religion. For example, going to school and learning is considered Jihad in one of its purest form, same goes with working, recovering oneself from an injury etc.
Note:The last real recent Jihad war was the Afghan occupation war with Russia,which most Islamic head of states(namely from the kingdom of Saudi Arabia) has officially declared the war for Afghanistan a Jihad war due to the cruel treatment of the Afghans people from Russian occupation forces.Declaration of a Jihad war must come from the leaders or heads of states of a number of Islamic nations.

With that said.....I'm kinda suprised to read from Merauder-san's post that Holland has the largest Muslim population in Europe.I was under the impression that France had the highest number of Muslim population....followed by Spain due to the descendants of the Moors.(I do know the Netherlands have a huge Muslim population due to the past Indonesian occupation and the incoming Moroccan immigrants but i always thought its number were less than of even Germany :sweatface: )



Oh yeah....speaking of politics, I'm taking Bush's victory rather well eventhough I dislike the guy for his past actions(especially his international policies) which seems cowboy arrogant and gung-ho to me.I do believe that now he finally sees that a lot of Americans(46% or 48% was it?) does not agree 100% with him and I hope he performs better in his new term.
My hat's off to Kerry and Edwards for their peformance on the latest election.I just love that Democrat "I will fight for every single vote attitude." :biggrin: :ok:
note:I also notice how handsome Mr. Edwards look....... :sweatface: I wanna copy his haircut, i kid u not. :cool:

Indeed the numbers of Moslims in France and germany are larger, but relative to my little country that has a bulging 16 million poeple on it (most crowded piece of europe) we relatively have in percentages of population, more Moslims then France or Spain. We thank this to our very liberal view on immigrants, just a few years back our rules for allowence into this country were rediculously low atracting waves of Islamic immigrants, that and we have many Indonesians thanks to our era of imperialism.

Van Aartsen, is just like many of our Dutch politicians, marching nicely in line with the Bush view on Islamic terrrorist activety. Proclaiming even fainth actions of a minority as a Jihad, or blow of terrorism agains us.

Poeple like van Aartsen are in my view, exactly not what European politics need right now. The European Union is either horribly divided, or following the American trend. We should be more cooperative and independant in following our ideas of how to deal with the worlds problems right now.

Ít's nice by the way to hear from somebody, who knows Islam history

I've watched the TV premier of: The sixth day.

The movie featuring Arnold Swarzenegger is about a future were it's very easy to clone just about anything, but it's still forbidden on humans. If you lost you're pets, just go to Re-pet and clone your beloved friend............
Arnold was against cloning at first. After a while the plot twisted when Arnold get's cloned by a criminal orginazation and all hell freezes over. The movie ends with both arnolds destroying the orgenazation and putting a stop to the evil mutated madman behind all of it. Finishing with a dramatic shootout were arnold and his clone escape just in time from the explosion. (I would have loved seeing at LEAST one of them die!!! C"MON there's 2 of you, out in the open, getting fired upon by a small army of security guards and STILL they make it out of there.)

The movie ends with Arnold changing his mind about cloning: cloned pets are now cool and acceptable and his exact double is allowed to fly of to ponder his being a clone. Wow talk about conflicting messages.

Not only am I stunned at the the poor ending and morales of the movie, I'm beginning to wander now what the rest of you think, with some countries far ahead on cloning research and america already having more then half it's cops geneticaly engineered. What is your opinion and the average opinion in your country about all things DNA mixed with science?

My country (and most of europe I beliefe) have publically banned Genetic foods, "Natural harvest" and "biologically controlled" is good advertisement in the Netherlands and I think Poeple should NOT be messing with the gene pools nomather the beniits.

I should really have more to say on the subject but it just seems so pointless. However I will say that the United States of America seems like a bit of a misnomer to me.

on the topic of The Sixth Day:

their stand/moral/whatever that clones are still people is way too forced in the end. come on, in the end, clone Governator goes on saying, "do I have a soul? blah blah blah." it sounds so stupid and poorly placed.

I'm not fond of the cloning issue. it's already old and done to death. just because the public (or at least some of the public) is against it doesn't mean governments won't do it in secret. maybe within the next 50 years, they might unveil the first (publicly admitted) human clone.

The Governator...talking about the morality issues of cloning in a movie?Oh man.....this probably will suck.Can someone say "Hercules in New York"? :sweatface:

Right now.....I'm kinda torn about this whole cloning thing.I'm against human cloning......but from the way I see it cloning or genetically manipulating crop plants and livestocks may seem necessary, since mankind's population has exceeded the 6 billion mark(and increasing rapidly,if i might add) and we may have to accept it to meet our needs in feeding our world's population.

bah, don't get dissilussioned about "we need more food in the world" we produce enough food to feed the worlds population 3 times over.

It's just that first world countries don't share because there is no profit in it and we experiment with genetic foods cause it's cheaper growing it then natural food.

And yet more than 1 billion people starve worldwide.In India alone...more than 50% of its people are living under the poverty line(and the last time I checked...India's population has exceeded the 1 million mark). BELOW the POVERTY line, not poor....not making minimum wage....its plain ol' poverty(probably make like 20 US dollars a year at best?)......there's a difference, which shows just how many people starve.



Sounds like a food problem to me.

Trust me on this.....in a few decades or maybe in a decade or two later on, cloning food or livestock...and consuming genetic food would be the norm of human society.When resources are scarce....conflict arises, and mankind want none of that,don't we? :cheesy:

So instead of being more ecologically correct with the recources we do have, we're just going to forsake the natural course of life with cloning?

We are capable of solving world hunger without resorting to science, it just is a lot harder. Humanity just seems bent on taking the easy way out and leave the problem to science.

Cloning is not a solution, it's just a quickworking, very dangerous patch me up.

Cloning would be ecologically correct since you're basically generating more produce/product from a single source or a number of cources.Realistically speaking, as the world human population grows.....the less resources get spread around and in the end eventhough we'd maximize everything (namely our resources....food,clothes,land,home,etc.), it'll still not be enough.

And that part on "we're just going to forsake the natural course of life with cloning?".....well, I dunno about you but from my understandment is that we; humans, have already forsaken the natural course of life a long time ago.
I know you've heard this already.....but one of the things that make us humans different and superior to other life forms on this planet is that we have the ability to be un-natural a.k.a. change our world to suit our needs.We are able to adapt changes....by undergoing changes of our own.We do things that are un-natural so that we may thrive and survive...
If we follow the natural course of life......then we'd probably have to go live without electricity,plumbing,medicine and all things that is scientifically related.
Had we follow nature's course....I doubt to think that we'd have even a tenth of teh world's population right now as most of them would've died from complicated birth, diseases and so on.

I agree that clonig is not THE solution......but at least it is an option that is available to us in the near future.
Like I mentioned earlier....I do not support it, but it DOES have its pros,y'know?I'm saying things as how I see it....both good and bad. :wink:

Perhaps if you actually lived in the USA you'd be able to understand why it's called the United States of America. Just because people voted for different people to be the President doesn't mean my country's name is a misnomer.

I was thinking more of the increasingly polarised nature of political discussion. You look at the popular political literature that is being published and all I can see is two groups of people that have no comprehension of each others views.

Then again, America is so unique among western democracies that I prolly don't have a correct insight into the patrioism involved.

Ah well, it's quite likely I'll be lliving in New York in two years or so, maybe I'll learn then.

ha? ??? i dun understand you at all. it would be nice to be trite.

kyubi's point, people all get it perfectly.

I wouldn't say that either the left or the right does not have comprehension of the other sides view. You seem to imply political discussion in my country is like a boxing match between two blind men, when it's really more of the opposite. It's more like the intellectual equivalent of an UFC or Pride FC match.

The Drudge Report has links to a variety of very good political commentators on both sides of the spectrum. People like Charles Krauthammer, David Broder, Michelle Malkin, and Eleanor Clift are all good commentators among many linked to there.

A popes first proclemation when he is chosen: I am but a humble servant of god. (or something like that, don't quote me)

yes funny, a humble servant living in the worlds biggest most luxurious castle making about 300 million a year....... isn't that a bit hypocritical?


I'm not so positive on Radzinger, I would have liked a more concervative pope to be chosen. Guess the entire world isn't out yet on gay-marriages and abortion, but I think we can all agree that birth control is crucial for millions of poeple if not the very future of the world, they should allow it, something not very likely with Radzinger.

or are there any poeple on board that disagree with that?
(proberly won't make a good discussion if talking to a religious person but i'd like to see if there are any.)